Not Dead Yet - Forum

Lord Tebbit 'could have been a hoodie' if his stint doing National Service hadn't knocked him into shape, he has said.

The Tory peer, who was known as the Chingford Skinhead during his time in politics, said serving the Armed Forces had given him an outlet for his energy and stopped him getting into trouble as a teenager.

Without a compulsory period in the military, the young find it difficult to channel aggression and energy in a positive way, explained the former Conservative chairman, who was a close ally of former prime minister Baroness Thatcher. Consequently, too many are driven to anti-social behaviour and crime - characterised by those who wear hooded tops.

He said: 'Growing up in inner London somewhere today, I would possibly have been a hoodie.

'You just have to get out and do something at that age. You have to lead people.

'One of the tragedies of today is the kids who ought to be leaders are being left to do destructive things instead - they feel they have to lead somewhere so they lead the gangs.

'It's the only leadership they can get,'  the 77-year-old told veterans at the RAF Association, Bognor, in West Sussex.

Between 1945 and 1963, every healthy man from 17 and 21 was expected to serve in the Forces for 18 months

Lord Tebbit, 77, grew up in Enfield, North London.Lord Tebbit also blamed Britain's education system for the teenage crime wave sweeping the country.

He said: 'We are failing them in the most dreadful way. We are creating terrific problems for society.

'The most academically gifted young people are not being stretched enough by state schools and those without many talents are just being cast adrift from society.   'http://tinyurl.com/5w3877

I can't help but think he's speaking the truth

Well yes Val,I have to agree to some of it too.
I am sure it will cost less than it does to take these peple to court,and then to keep them an their off spring.
Who knows if they were taught a trade like they used to do things might look up !

Rather tiring to think about our younger generation, as too just what they want from life ?? -- They are bored?? So find them something, worthwhile to actually DO?????
Train them to be positive in their outlook for 'their' Future and get their interests and Attitude Changed ---- Put Them Back Into The Community ?????????

Is he speaking the truth - yes and no.
In Germany young men have to either share the armed forces or do some social work, as we don't have a "professional army" like the Brits, French or Americans. Many young people prefer doing some social work, as they don't want to kill.
On the other side the army is, of course, a place for young people without "any future", because if they join it in a professional way,i.e. to become soldiers, they have the chance of getting a training for some other job, i.e. mechanicien etc. etc. However, in this case they don't know whether they will be sent to "dangerous" regions and lose their life.
On the whole the army is more popular in Eastern Germany than in Western Germany.

Does Dying, for an unworthy cause, justify The end product??  I Think Not !! But today's training may well be capable of helping these youngsters??

I think todays youngsters need more opportunity to get a training in work that will provide a living. There just aren't the jobs out there they can do or train for. After they leave school they are left to get on with it when as teenagers they still need structure and guidance. These days its who you know not what you know.I think they would all be a lot more responsible with the right sort of help.

Does dying for an unworthy cause mean defending your country Pheonix. Had we thought like that in 1939 we would have been ruled by the nazis, we would have lost the Falklands and NI.

The youngsters that join just want to serve their country, it isn't their choice where they go or what war they fight. Maybe to have boot camps and not national service is the way forward for those causing trouble and more trade training available for those who aren't.

Val, are you sure youngsters joining the army want to serve their country. In my opinion this is no longer valid - they are sent to some country far away. It's just a job and  - at least in Germany a job where you can earn a lot of money, because you get an extra for being stationed in a dangerous foreign country. Sometimes I think they don't realise how dangerous their job is.

Yes its still there, they are proud to be in the forces and rightly so,I think its drummed into them in basic training.

There are many valid points, in your postings.
The war in 1945 was for the 'safety' of our country, by supporting Europe!!  The wars, currently in far off eastern places, cannot be placed on the same level!!
Many of 'our' forces, are dying, sometimes for the lack of the right equipment. Many are Disilusioned !!
Teri, I think you have a valid point, as it is one way of doing something benificial and getting paid??  I shter any other choice for them ??

Phoenix, I'm not acquainted with the English situation, but in Germany the army is really a chance for youngsters without any job (boys and girls).
Many years ago my younger daughter had a friend who was soldier and he was very happy in the army - he told me that there is kind of a friendship he never had met before.

Teri, I believe it's called "cameradie" or comrades in arms. Not many appear to want to go into the forces today ?? possibly because of the external threats ??
Some of those already in!! are buying themselves out because of 'Disillusionedment' ?? Perhaps so much has changed since my time in the 40s.??

Also Phoenix we accepted discipline,something no longer accepted.(politically correct springs to mind)and that has no discipline at all.
Discipline should be our basic rule,at school and at home,maybe then our country would be a better place to live.

True Phoenix, would you like to die for some "unknown" people like the Iraqi or the Afghans? On German TV they said yesterday that on the whole little has changed in Afghanistan.
In the 40s you were defending your country and that was quite different.

As it was??  so shall it never be!!
Discipline ?? we was brought up with it and with it came respect!! -- this is what I have said all along, without it, there is nothing, as with today!!
bye the way ?? Discipline, died along with common sense!!
Both, sadly missed.

Teri , ??  Would I be prepared to die for another country ??   Not on Your life!!

Phoenix, but that's what's expected from today's soldiers.

Do I recall the Russians being in Afghanistan once...and they left with nothing only loss of life and debt.

They do still have discipline and respect in the forces but you only hear about the awful things. If you'd have been with me on my daughters passing out parade you'd have seen it yourselves. I don't want you getting the wrong idea about the forces today a bit of the old Britain is alive and well in Her Majesty's forces.

Val, I don't want to contradict you - but the question is - when they die in Iraq and Afghanistan they actually don't die for their country, but for a country where only a minority welcomes them. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I understood from our media.
I know, in schol I learnt that there is a big difference between your army (professionnel army) and our army (which every healthy young man has to join).

Of course theres discipline in the armed forces, they cant become a fighting force without it. The americans slways appear more relaxed with their officers, but nevertheless, when an order is given its obeyed at once.  We should never  be in Iraq, that was Blair using the WMD as an excuse.  Afghan is a more complex question, I am not sure what we are trying to acheive there. The Russians with their millions couldnt subdue them, so theres little hope we can. Back to dtscipline, I amsure we have all watched the Edinburgh Tattoo, that is a great example of the  discipline needed to carry out those manouvers.

They are serving their country wherever the order is to go, the fighting in Iraq etc may be wrong but that is the politicians choice not the armed forces, they are just obeying orders that  they receive and in their view serving their country because that is where the order came from. I guess the old adage applies, theirs is not to reason why theirs is but to do or die.Its those at the top that get it wrong.

I SAW A PROG ON TV ABOUT HEROS. IT APPEARS THIS SOLDIER THREW HIMSELF ON TOP FF A HANDGRENADE TO SAVE HIS COMRADES, LUCKILY HE SURVIVED.YOU CANT GET BRAVER THAN THAT