Not Dead Yet - Forum

Irish pensioners get 220 Euro's a week. They dont have our council tax system in Ireland.

Italian pensioners get 130 Euro's a week. They dont have our unjust council tax system in any European country, just here in the UK.

German pensioners receive 230 Euro's a week.

It is true that in some EU countries their right wing leaders are trying to bring about change, but it is also true that the people in these countries will protest, unlike us British who retain the stiff upper lip.

Hi Michael,
there's an error in your caluculation of German pensions - there are more pensioners who only receive 100 Euro or less a week than those that receive 230 Euro or more. I, for instance, can only dream of such an amount! 
In Germany the pension is depending on what you have earned on an average and how long you were working, moroever the health insurance and the old age care insurance are deducted from your pension, so that the net amount you receive on your account is much lower.

One should 'cast' their minds back to 1972, when Heath  ::)decided to Take this, OUR Country into The E.E.C.  ;D ;D
 All Countries will be Equal?? For Work and travel etc: etc: etc: -- The Year at present is 2008!! and still playing Games??  Equats to 36 Full Years ::) ::) ::)
Just the same as OUT Christmas Bonus 1972 = £10.00p.
2007 = £10.00p. -- Can YOU  see The Difference ?????????
 Even a blind person, could see that!!
Left wind -- Right wing ?? Does it matter when nothing but Excuses are forthcoming  ::) ::) ::) --- Our Senior Citizens, have Great Pride and will not 'Grovel' for the benifits, they are Entitled too!! -- Don't Tell Me This government, Do Not Know just WHO is Below The Low Income Limit??

Hello Michael,
just saw a discussion about pensions on German TV, among others there was also a lady telling us that she just gets 630 Euro per month - she has worked for 29 years in a bookshop. Perhaps this is of some interest to you.

Hopefuly, all Information, is of benifit to some people??
As it is something to relate too!!

It is dreadful Teri,29 years for that ! 

Some pensioner's will not even receive that, Here!!
How will they 'survive' --  Mortgages still unpaid too??

Ha phoenix I dont get that off the state lol

MAC,  That is because of our totally 'Unfair System' --- which seems to Prove?? That some people will receive Benifits, and some will Not receive Benifits?? -- With The Cost of Living, still rising fast, this situation will be the cause of much more Failure??

The young workers of today are all watching this space,they wont get a private pension no point, I get told, look at you ! and I have to agree I am worse off with one.They are mostly putting their money in property so they can sell it and move away without relying on a pension from the UK,because if you move out of this country you dont get the rises,not that, thats, anything to write home about,but you wont pay this tax either.

It is saddening to think of those younger people, that are really struggling to make their family lives better. Hoping they have some security of employment to be able to pay their way?? and yet what can be done for them ??

Teri, Yes, our pensioners receive an inflation linked state pension of £90 a week for a working life of contributions, and means testing is costing 10 times more than the restoration of the earnings link would cost.

While other posters talk about young workers, but who has made it bad for them ?, we have, our generation are responsible.

Because we are primarily self interested, we are not a politically motivated country, and many pensioners vote the way their parents did, without having any knowledge of the ideoligy of the party.

The 18 years of Thatcher and Major rule, got rid of council house house building, got rid of state pensions, got rid of minimum wages, and began to run down the "role of the state".

We have seen the very same with New Labour.

Is it any wonder our young people are drinking thmselves to death.

Michael, May I suggest you look at These Websites??
http://eutruth.org.uk    Relevant to "The Abolition of Britain,  by The Reform Treaty" also "Traitors to The United Kingdom"  by David Noakes: --- There is also -- "The Centre for Policy Studies"   'The Governments hidden agenda to Control our Lives' and   "The Common Purpose" --
A criminal organisation, that abuses Government Posts for gain!! --  These are emails that have been sent to me, that makes for very Interesting reading and Digesting!!
All relevant to Today and The future!! ::) ::) ::)
Should you not be able to get into them, I shall be pleased to send them to you!!  So much is 'hidden' from our people Today, But I feel The People should know. I have been asked to send around!!

Just one click told me everything, the UKIP, absolute balderdash from start to finish.

It is sad indeed today with our freedom of the press, that there is not media outlet newspaper that is revealing the positives of Europe, the most thriving economy in the Western World, while we dissapear down the plug hole.

The UKIP preach to the converted, they have no opposition, sadly.

But then again, neither do our New Labour Government having stolen Thatcherite clothes since 1997, but will Cameron admit this ?, no of course he wont, another right wing politician who simply does not want to give our media the fodder they need to chew on, so the likes of Dimbleby and co. can make millions by continued political impartiality.

Teri, We have a Welfare state, NHS, and state pension system that all British pensioners have been paying mandatory NI contributions into for 30, 40, and 50 years, this generation were promised "cradle to grave care".

But the Thatcher Government from 1979 began to dismantle it all, and todate the New Labour Government has continued what Thatcher started, so now there is virtually nothing left, and do you what what the great British public do ?.

We let all Government's walk all over us, because we are gutless.

Hello Michael, It is good to hear from you again. I thought maybe you had left us again. Please remember one only believes in what one desires? Or just how one would love to see our country ---- Again??  Politics, appear to be a bad thing. Why does there have to be so  many problems?? Cannot All people work together for the same or similar ends??  without being Political??

"UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL" -- DO WE, THE COUNTRY, HAVE TO FALL EVEN FURTHER?? IF SO. WHY????

Michael
I resent being called gutless,
if I speak out about the migrants,I am racist,if I speak out about the government its not politically correct,
and anyway who listens ?
I saw a good party political program tonight it was by the UKIP but will they be true to their word.........or like the rest just feather their on nests when in power.

Michael, I am patienly awaiting an answer, to all Comments?? -- You will get absolutely nowhere, by calling our Generation 'gutless?' ::) I trust that you do Not include those that gave their lives for this Country???
As a 'possible candidate' for an M.P. just why are you so negative and dwell in The past?? -- Be more 'positive' and project, -- The Future!! -- It is stated that 80% are against a multiracial country!!  80%??  Does that Include Yourself ?? Are You really For The People and Our Country??
Why Do You Want To Be An M.P.  ::) ::) ::) -----
Food is now at the Highest Level of Cost for 17 years!!
That man ::) is Giving £300 million of OUR Hard Earned Money,To Africa ::) -- Don't Worry at all about The Senior Citizens, of this country. The Golden Oldies are Dying out!!  Just concentrate on 'those' that abuse all our systems and Deny The Pensioner's A really decent Rise!!
GO 'FORWARD' YOUNG MAN AND PROGRESS INTO THE 'FUTURE' ????

And take Gordon Brown with you lol !

No, Im not refering to you pensioners.  There are just 12 million of you, in a 60 million population.
You will get nowhere until you have the backing of the country you fought for or played a part in the war effort.

In my view today's relative younger people take all that you fought for and won, for granted, this is where there is no respect.

Fantastic virtues like the NHS, the welfare state, minimum wages, council housing, all fought for an won, but now taken for granted.

I am "NOT" saying that anybody is a waster and scrounger, I am not small minded like that, I am not judgemental, I am simply saying that today's younger people dont really know they are living.

Yes they have their problems bestowed onto them by the older elecrate, but if you among the older elderly people did not work, you did not eat, and I believe this aspect is taken for granted, not by everybody, but a good many younger people ive no doubt.

Thank you for the explanation Michael

Michael, in some respects you are right, but young people who were born into a society of consumers as we call it, don't know how it was before - like us, we don't know how it was when we didn't have any welfare system at all and young people had to care for the old ones.
In our yesterday's paper they wrote that due to our Hartz IV we will have a lot of poor senior citizens in Eastern Germany in future.

like us Teri,we have poor pensioners,the ones that dont get benefits are poor,the poor are looked after,the rich sre too,its the ones in the middle that suffer.The ones that made Britain GREAT

Rightly or wrongly, Mrs T made decisions she thought was best for the country, un like Blair who made decisions to benofit himsely and his cohorts in westminster, now being carried on by Brown. As one of the gutless ones who has allowed this country to get into the mess its in, can I ask Michael what he and his generation are doing to prevent this country from slipping further into the abyss.

Wrong, Thatcher wanted power at any cost, her policies were designed to be opportunist, like selling the off of council houses and not building any more.

Monetarism was the key policy, creating unemployment to get inflation low, Gordon Brown's doing the same now, controlling inflation by not giving into pay increases.

William, political ignorance, apathy, and indifferent to others has been the political agenda from the British since the 1980's, and my generation are at fault here.

Young people today have become equally self obsorbed and self centred.

We have it all in Britain but we are too stupid and thick to see it.

We know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.

I have decided to Pass on this!!  There really is, so much one could say, but would take 'overlong' without completion. We do know The price and the values, relative to the standards for our living, in a decent society!!
Stupid and Thick??  Hardly!! Please do credit us, with a little more intelligence than that. You really should not 'attack' the people that you want to Support you in your endeavour, to become an MP?? -- Have I missed your comments about our 'Unelected' prime minister and his cohourts?? -- In viewing our posts on this forum, I wouls suggest going for Compromise of requirements ??
For all of our future needs!!

Oh dear Michael
WE dont have it all,at all,and what we do have was hard to come by.............remember the 3 day week ? remember the electricty cuts,remember the coal miners whole communities wiped out there.Scargill was right he said they would close the pits and they did.Now we have no nationalised industries at all and look whats happened all the deadlegs have jumped on the bandwagon to rip us off,saying they will repair this and that but they arent qualified..Theres nowhere for people to live,no tradesmen,no trust.It might all be down to Thatcher but my God they have had long enough to sort it !
While  I am at it can you tell me what the hell he is doing in America ?..............just a hunch but could it be to do with money ? or even worse yet another war !

The Winter of discontent had to happen, because this was the cultimation and consequence of life that started way back in our industrial past when exploitation of the working man was rife, hence the Unions and the Labour movement being formed.

Margaret Thatcher exploited that situation for her Government's own ends, to gain power, the lady then proceeded to take Britain back to victorian wage levels and victorian values, with New Labour continuing her ethos 100%, todate.

Oh! Boy!  Whatsoever Margaret Thatcher actually DID!!
Blair followed suit, as does Brown!! Perhaps the man/Woman has not been Born yet, that is Capable of taking this Our Country ---- OUT OF THE CESS PIT!!
 But?? To give you the opportunity to Go Forward??
 Who would YOU suggest, that could possibly rectify this countries problems?? -- I can see no real strength, in any potencial leader ::) ::) ::)

There are far too many people following the greed and self interest that spawned from the Thatcher era, now who have their noses in the trough, including our well fed and looked after MP's

If all what was going on in the UK this past 20 odd years, at least since the 1980's had been happening in any other EU country, it would not have lasted five minutes let alone over 2 decades.

It all boils down to British apathy, from the top, down.

If we dont care abour our own country folk, why should the politicians ?

Well you think its bad now you just wait !
I have just spent many hours on a train and there were many teenagers on it and I listend to them talking together,I felt I wanted to wind them up ! they were so slow,and they had their feet on the tables and no respect for anyone,it seemed to me all that mattered was their hair and make-up,and the ticket on their clothes.
One or two of them had to stand up on a long journey and they all had it sussed,if there was an accident they knew how to claim,like my neck hurts etc all what they have alrady seen on tv,but not one of them pulled out a book and read it and we were many hours travelling.! Now mobiles are a different story,they were never off them !So I come to the conclusion.................the best thing you can give to your kids is good manners and guess what..............it free !
I doubt very much these kids even hear of Thatcher let alone lived when she was in power,somewhere it all went wrong.................it couldnt be the disciplin could it

You saw just a few kids, how many kids live in the UK ?.  It is easy to make judgements about anybody, but when we make judgements we judge ourselves.

I feel sorry for young people today, they learn from us, and they have got nothing to look forward to, no secure jobs like we had, no secure housing like we had, no state pensions definately, and no way of raising a family.

The youngsters have been born into a highly material British world, where caring, community, and society has gone.

What we all have is the freedom to do what we want, when we want, and to hell with everybody else.

It is a shame you didnt figure out some way to talk to these youngsters, because all they get is ridicule, which is why they ignore people and do what they want to do.

One person did speak to them Michael,he asked them to stop swearing and be a little quieter,this made it fifty times worse they just went louder and more swearing.Prior to that the guard asked them to take their feet off the tables they did then put them back on when he had gone.The person that was with them was not in control of them they just ignored whatever she said.
I think I/and my generation are  not to blame for their behaviour,I was not one that would vote for wearing kid glves where kids are concerned I was firm but fair with mine,and the same with the grandkids.

Mac,Well Said!!   I could not agree More!!

Michael,  Do you really Live, In The Real World??
 Seeing a few kids as you call them??  Adolecents Really!!
Describes the 'average of today' ?? -- Perhaps you live in a 'controlled area'?? WE Do Not!!  The Damage and Deaths 'some' have caused, Is beyond all comprehension. Many people in some Area's, live in Total fear of Gangs!!
We have expressed our opinions and some are the same as your's -- Relevant to feeling Sorry for The Genuine one's that to really WANT, a reasonable livelyhood??
FREEDOM!!  Yes, we do have that, but only relevant to any forthcoming government restrictions!!

I am Still Waiting for Your 'Prophesy' for The next 10 years??  What part will You Play  ::) ::) ::)

What part can anybody play ?.  I agree with you about gangs of kids, out of control, undisciplined, and under age to be named.

I dont know why this happens, I wont make judgements on the parents, but the parents cant be watching their youngsters all the time.

Michael its not British apathy
its `whats the point` which ever way you turn there is a `do gooder` telling you otherwise.
1) they do not learn from ME
2) what was secure about our housing ? we had to pay for it !
3) they are not ridiculed,they are the ridiculers
4) they have a way of raising a family.........they just get pregnant and somebody else keeps it !    ie-tax payers.
5)yes the caring community has gone as we knew it,but you can still live here for free,this is why there are no houses being built,and the pensions saved have been creamed off.
6) if they learn from us then they would be like us ? yes,answer NO we were fools we paid our way and still do,and for what, increases all the time in TAX and poll tax and fuel bills,
and very badly treated pensioners.God help us when it is their turn !!!! the ones that you say they will learn from are THEM !!!!

Michael you are right, parents can't watch their children all time, but they can tell them how they have to behave. Most parents just look for their own "self-realisation" - at least in Germany.

Teri, ive a theory here.  Britain is the most expensive country in Europe to live, one issue is the expense of our housing due to the greed and self interest during the Thatcher years when she sold off council housing and didnt replace them, but we all went on a frenzy of buying and selling to make our profits, even though we were void of council housing.

What im getting at is that our population is stressed out, we work the longest ours in Europe, and for what ?, to pay our blasted mortgages, or high rents in the private sector.

Kids today are running wild in Britain because parents are too stressed out to deal with them, and schools are not allowed to discipline due to parental choice.

How right do you think I am ?

Michael, You may well have the wrong idea about myself.
 A lot of what you state is correct or at least close to the facts!! The one thing that I will disagree about, is forever going back to 'Thatcherism'-- Every leader does and will make 'mistakes' -- We are ALL Human!! --
 What we all need now, is a Leader to Show by Example!! To Go Forward Into The future?? -- Faith can move mountains!!
Not sure about 'Rising out of The 'Cesspit' ::) ::) ::)
So!! Who, How, and When -- Do We Start??

Pheonix, I have to agree with you, Thatcherism has been a htorn in the side of the lefties for a long time.
 I wish we had someone like her now to straighten up the country. The winter of discontent, when the left ruled unions were virtually running the country, striking at the drop of a hat for 20,30 40% payrises. That man Scargill, did as much if not more to closing the coal mines.
I was acoal miner and didnt like to see it, but either MrsT or Scargill was going to run the country and she made sure it was her. I must admit she went off the rails towards the end but as you say nobodys perfect, well nearly nobody

I was not a miner, Im not a stalwart left wing Socialist, I dont not support any political party.

But I will say this, Margaret Thatcher set out to break up working class solidarity for political gain, and we were stupid, and greedy enough to support her.

Now we have a right wing New Labour Government who have no opposition.

A could not care less attitude among all age groups has gripped this nation since the Thatcher era, the same as Hitler brainwashed the cultured German's to his evil ways during World War two.

We Brit's are largely uncultured, undisciplined, unruly, and lacking in political education, because our education system have been crassly underfunded for decades.

Michael.I agree with some of what you say, but in that winter of discontent this country was in a mess, being held to ransome by left wing dominated unions, Mrs T broke their stranglehold and for that people followed her.
Hitler came to power when the german economy was in a mess,with mass unenployment,he improved the lives of the people and so they followed him.
then their paths met and they both went down the wrong one,Hitler a bit more savagely than Mrs T, but by then it was too late, we came to realise that things were going wrong. What either we or the Germans could do about it I dont know.

Looks like we are Back to Mrs.Thatcher yet again?? ---
Here we are in The Year 2008. and certainly, No Further Forward --- Shall WE Ever ?? Money is still being wasted and just who cares??  There must be an 'Excess' of it:: ::
NHS is still just as bad. Dirty Hospitals = Need Cleaning!!
Schools = Need to Educate it's pupils, to be able to Read and Write and Do Maths ::) ::) The school does not need to be New?? -- We Do Have The people!! Just Needs better Training and to do The Job --- Correctly!! With FOUR Months of this year already Gone ::) ::) Don't you think that it is Time?? To Prepare for 2009 ?? STEP FORWARD!!
LEAD AND WE MAY -----   FOLLOW!!
SHOW BY EXAMPLE??  WE MAY YET BE A TEAM!!

That's quite an interesting discussion.
Michael when I was in the UK for the first time - in the sixties - it was a country Germans only could dream of. You had such a lot of advantages compared with the remaining European countries, but at that time we Germans consoled ourselves with the thought that you had won WW II and we had lost it. However, what you missed to do - in my opinion and I hope I don't offend you - was to look forward and to realise that times and conditions were changing. Germans worked hard to build up again their country and economy. It's true those German virtues have been lost a little bit during the last years, but at least in the region where I live people start to revert to these virtues. Above all since the so-called PISA test (a test carried out with all European pupils) showed that Germans and German schools had been a bit too superficial in the past.
Building a house is very expensive in Germany - I just renovated a flat in my mother's house and the costs ran away. However, on the other side it's good to have an own flat or house, because when you are old you don't have to pay a rent and as in the UK the German old age pensions are not so high for most people - naturally there are exceptions as everywhere and they gloss over the statistics.
Michael as I already told you I travelled a lot through Europe during the last ten years and believe me, the British are well of compared to other countries in Southern Europe. Take for instance Spain - it's only in the last years that a pension has been introduced for senior citizens. Twenty years ago people in Andalusia didn't have any chance to find a job - in summer/autumn they helped with the harvesting and that was all - many people from Southern Italy, Spain and Portugal migrated to Germany in the fifties and sixties as "guest workers" to earn their living.
Although I only get a very small pension I'm of the opinion that people never had a better life before than today - so I really can't understand why we are continuously complaining. Do you think we would have been better off, if we had lived in the 20s????

Teri, in 1945 a British Labour Government introduced a policy to uphold the state pension system that had received "mandatory" contributions by the war generations when they were working, by linking the state pension to earnings or inflation whichever the higher.

In 1980 the incoming Thatcherite right wing Tory government, cut the state pensions link to earnings and then linked the state pension to inflation and then proceeded to introduce policies to reduce inflation, so the state pension would decline in value which it has todate  because our New Labour government had continued Tory pensions policy since they came to power in 1997.

And so it continues !!!

Correct, and in true British style we do nothing.

AND SO IT CONTINUES! ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

....... and if they haven't died yet, they will still continue ..........

Are we stupid, or what ?

I can't judge, I live in Germany.

Germany had the Social Charter until Angela Merkal ( have I got that right ? ) took on Thatcher's ethos, and now Germany, like France, is moving to the right, but unlike we British I hope you German's are taking to the streets.

Michael it wasn't Angela Merkel who started the Agenda 2010, but Schroeder and everybody hoped she would row back, but she didn't - she just continued what Schroeder had started. This has its good sides and some sides that are not so very good. Out economy improved, but many people don't earn still enough to pay their costs of living and must apply for income support. As to pensioners, since about 7 or 8 years their pensions didn't increase and now they are discussing an increase of 1.1 %.

Thats very sad Teri,they should not give them the rise and them could claim the benefits ?

Teri, That's right, I remember talking to a German family a while ago, through their English speaking daughter they told me that.

The father of the family also said that the German's are protesting about these changes, is this correct ?

And hey also said that the German Government were slowly withdrawing the benefits of the EU Social Charter,including minimum wages.  Is that right ?

Michael, it's true, we are not very happy about the changes in our social plans (social reforms we call it), but let me tell you the following
a) we have a "big" coalition, thus a powerful government with only an insignificant opposition
b) reforms in the social plans are necessary - even if they are hard for us - the times of the "big" money are yesterday's snow (I have been working in the department for social welfare for more than two years and I think I know what I'm talking about)
c) at the moment we have a hard discussion about minimum wages, but I think we need them to reduce illegal jobs to a minimum and to ensure that people have the opportunity of working. Michael you mustn't forget having a job is not only earning money for your living, but it's also a question of pride and honour. Many people feel rather useless and are depressed when they don't have a job.

Teri, I know all about being depressed about being unemployed, all my life ive worked, including 13 years on the British Postal Service, 1974, until 1987.

I resigned in 1987 to try something new, and in a new relationship which collapsed, and I found myself homeless, and unemployed in my 40's for the first time in my life, I am now self employed.

Yes I know all about the demoralisation, hopelessness, and demeaning side of being out of work, and I know Europe is changing from the high income tax Social Charter to our low income tax right wing anglo saxon, free-market model, the question is, will the Europe people let it all happen without protest, like we British have ?

Michael for many Europeans it's an advantage to have a social charter at all. In former poor countries, like Spain, Portugal and Greece as far as I know there didn't exist any social charter before they joined the European Union and even in Germany still some years ago farmers and self-employed persons had to care for their old age by themselves. The majority didn't do anything and had to apply for income support when they were no longer able to work. Or take for instance my grandparents, they were farmers in Hungary and when they were expelled to Germany they didn't receive any pension, they had to apply for income support and even although it was very low they were very happy to get some money at all.
Naturally there's a difference in view and mentality between the different European natinalities - some are quicker when it is question of protesting and others are slower. However, let me tell you that as to the man in the street there was no generation who had a higher standard of living and if people got a higher pension in the past, you mustn't forget under which circumstances they worked. My parents for instance still worked 10 hours a day and that 6 days a week.
Perhaps you think now, Teri - she is rather arrogant - Michael, I'm not arrogant but realistic.

Teri, you are not arrogant, and realism is a loose term..

I am aware of the poorer EU countries, I am also aware of the EU Social Charter and that this Social Charter wraps in stone, workers right, good state pensions, minum wages ect.

I am also aware that when our former PM Margaret Thatcher took office in 1979 she saw the EU Social Charter as the bastion of Socialism which she hated, and so devided not to take us further into the EU despite the fact that we Brit's had voted to stat in, in a 1975 referendum, ( correct me if ive the date wrong folks )

No Maggie decided as a matter of policy to take Britain back to victorian values, slave labour, no minimum wages, poor state pensions with means tested benefits, and to generally cut back on the role of the British state, and New Labour since 1997 have continued the very same.

Hi David I see you are still at it my friend. Best of luck Jericho.

John White, We are in Europe at a cost of 30 million a day, but not to "join them", but to have them "join us", this is what Tony Blair's constitution is all about when he had his turn at being President of Europe, and Brown is continuing this, and if you remember the French and the Dutch threw it out, because New Labour's constitution is basic free- market Thatcherism.

Also during Blair's Presidency he secured UK opt-outs on Tax, pensions, and welfare, this is why we still pay a low income tax, why workers are still means tested from a welfare state funded by low income tax, and why UK pensioners still receive a grossly inadaquate state pension.

Hello Jericho, My Great friend!! Good to see You on form ;D ;D --- Have You any 'Forward Thinking Idea's' --  Badly needed here?? The past is The past and cannot be Built upon, as the british do not learn from their mistakes!! we shall continue to go Down and Down!!
Getting to the end of my tether, I feel I just don't care what happens -- It is All Talk and No Do!!  Talk is Cheap!!
 Brings about No Progress and just Wastes Time!!
 Wonder what 'News' brussels will give us ------ Next ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Phoenix, don't be so pessimistic!

Just Have To face up To THE TRUTH!!! -- By Listening To THE PEOPLE =  True Democracy!! ??? ??? ???